Interesting Article
I recently read an interesting article from the New York Times (see above link) which talked about college students feeling that they deserve an A for simply showing up and submitting all work. The professor in the article argued that doing the bare minimum will earn a C and only work that goes above and beyond can earn an A or B. He talks about the entitlement that many young people feel they deserve.
I would like you to read the article and then provide thoughtful commentary. Namely:
What were your thoughts? Do you agree with Prof. Grossman or disagree? Can you see this problem from his point of view? What do you think contributes to the sense of "entitlement" in young people? As you think about starting your college careers, is this something you will keep in mind? Near the end of the article, they talk about GPA's and if it's below 3.0, it doesn't look very well for you as you embark on your careers. What are your thoughts with the tie-in to a successful first job and your GPA? Is this something you will take seriously?
Please make sure at least your first name is in your comment. You will be graded for your thoughtful, insighful commentary, spelling and grammar. Hint: Write in Word first, then copy and paste to the comment section. :)
26 comments:
I don’t agree with the Professor Grossman at all. I think that if you’re putting in 110% effort, then you deserve, at the bare minimum, a B. If somebody is really bad at a certain subject, even if they try, they just may not understand it. Take me and math for example. I am so horribly bad at math, it isn’t even right. Honestly, if I had ten cents for every time I had to have my math teacher explain something to me, I’d probably have at least $100. I’m the perfect candidate for this because I try and try and try some more, but I just DON’T get it. I believe in an A for effort. It isn’t my fault, or any other student’s, if they just don’t understand a subject. I can understand if a student isn’t turning in papers and skipping out on lectures, then expecting a B. No, they don’t deserve a decent grade because they’re not trying. In a sense, I can see his point of view, but I don’t agree with it.
I think college students fresh out of high school have this sense of entitlement, because we’re babied in high school. Our teachers chase after us for assignments and this is the place where “A for Effort” is put into effect. Junior year, all of my teachers warned me about how the senior teachers wouldn’t chase after us, how they’d be sooo hard on us because they’re preparing us for college. But, I have a feeling a lot of us are going to have a rude awakening when we go to college.
After reading this article, I agree with Professor Grossman. His theory is that if his students do all of the required work for class, they get a C. For most students, they think that they deserve an A for their hard work. In middle and high school, grades are crucial for getting into higher levels of education and students are honored for receiving A’s and B’s. I think that for working hard and doing all of the required work, students should receive a C because according to most grading systems, an A is considered excellent, a B is Above Average, C is Average, D is Below Average, and an F is Failing. If students go above and beyond to do more than what is required, they should earn a grade higher than a C. College students think that they deserve higher because in high school, students who earn A’s and B’s only do required work and, which proves that in college, you have to do more than just the required work.
I agree and disagree with this article. I think that if you can tell a student is putting in the extra effort to do well in your class then that should influence the outcome of their grade, that is where i disagree with Prof.Grossman. I agree with him that you can't just show up to a class and expect to get a good grade because you were there. I don't think that a GPA and your job have a huge tie in honestly. The way I see it is you were good enough to get your degree, even if you struggled you still accomplihed that and your GPA shouldnt matter as much as people make it seem like it does.
I think that the biggest contribution to the sense of "entitlement" is that a lot of students know that they are tryi ng hard and feel that if they put the effort in that should count a lot in their grade, but a lot of teachers don't see it that way. A lot of teachers see that if what the student is doing is not cookie-cutter then they don't deserve the better of a grade, which is not fair at all.
Article?
Wow this article is something else Mrs. Sylvia. To be honest with you I don’t think that an article like this should be typed out, but rather discussed as a group. My opinion at first glance is that the grading system for school has always been inaccurate and I don’t think that you should receive just one grade for a whole class. Every kid has their strengths and their weaknesses in each class. In our school some teachers make one part of class worth way more than another giving some kids an advantage. That’s ridiculous. In one of my classes there is a girl who doesn’t want to talk out in front of the class but the teacher makes her every day. She doesn’t get better at it she just gets more and more embarrassed day by day. Kids have started to spread it around and make fun of her. This is all happening because of the way some is teaching.
I do agree with this Dr. Grossman because kids these days think that they deserve a grade just for coming into class. Now I’m a smart kid don’t get me wrong and I know when I’m slacking and I know when I’m on spot. This gentleman reminds me of Mr. Dacey my favorite teacher of all time. He was the kind of teacher who gave you the grade that you earned. He gave you a choice at the beginning of every class. You could do the work or you could sleep through the class. In the beginning of the year I slacked off and got a D. I thought wow this is the hardest class I have ever been in. In reality I was just being wicked lazy. I think that the kids who disagree with this gentleman are going to ultimately fail in life. You only get out what you put in.
Now to the question will I keep this article in mind? I don’t think that I will because I have already come to the realization that if you don’t do anything in school you fail. Now this concept seems to be hard for most people to understand but I think I have a grip on it. It amazes me that in this school there are kids that will make an effort to either make the teacher feel bad or say the class is too hard and call their parents in. It kills me when I see that because if they just redirected that effort they would pass.
A grade point average is a representation of only your effort and that’s it. My friend jack has a .9 grade average and is smarter than almost any kid I know. You know why he has that grade it’s because he doesn’t care. It’s because he already knows or learns the information within the first part of the week then sleeps through the rest. All I’m trying to say even if it’s morally incorrect is that just because Larry has a 4.0 doesn’t mean that he is smarter than me. In a world this vicious a stupid number should not decide my fate.
I would never take an article such as this one seriously. It’s just so stupid.
I thought that this article makes it seem like all students demand that they get an A. Sure some do but not all. You have to understand that not everyone’s efforts play out the same way. I could work as hard as I have ever worked in my life and still get a D. While someone else could work as hard as me and get an A. I think that effort should definitely be taken into consideration instead of being ridiculous about it and just grading by the work you see. No I don’t agree with Prof. Grossman. Of course if a student works hard they expect a good grade. Common sense! The professor may have higher standards than the student. Also, all students complain he should get used to it. I do see his problem but can he see this problem from his student’s point of view? I think this sense of “entitlement” you’re talking about is in every age group against each other not just in young people. But I think that everyone feels that they are working hard and the professor doesn’t so they get a little ticked off. Yes, I will keep this in mind when starting college because this situation will always appear in life not only in school but elsewhere like work or in your family.
I think that students deserve the GPA that they work for. I think people my age think they are entitled everything because of technology it makes everything so much easier and everyone a lot lazier. I don’t think teachers should grade students based on who did the best work out of everyone. I think students should be graded on how much effort they put into their work compared to their usual standards. I wish I did think about my GPA earlier because I would have taken school serious from the start. From now on I do take it very seriously though.
I think that the whole point of college is to obtain the knowledge that you are required to know in a certain field, so you can be successful when you get a job in that field in the real world. When you go to college, as long as you prove that you understand the material by doing the necessary work then you deserve an A. An A just simply represents your thorough understanding of the subject that is being taught. But to go beyond that is simply ludicrous. I think that forcing students to go beyond what is required by the class to prove your knowledge of the subject is nothing less than cruel. Why do you think tests exist? They exist because they evaluate the students understanding of the material being taught. Now, if a student gets an A on the test and gets a C for the course just because the student didn’t go above and beyond the course requirements is seriously messed up. The grades of these college courses depend greatly on a student’s career. Unlike middle school and high school, college grades actually matter. Jobs are extremely competitive nowadays and it isn’t right if you lose a job to someone else when you are just as qualified just because your college teacher felt like giving you a C for not doing what was more than required. What this teacher is doing is morally wrong. This teacher shouldn’t be allowed to grade these students like this just because he wants to fulfill a Hollywood life changing “carpe diem” type teacher image. These students will forget about him two weeks after the course ends. His job is simply to make sure these students understand the material and to prepare them for a career in the real world.
Dan Moxley
I agree with Professor Grossman to a certain degree but then I start to disagree with him. I think this is because college students should not think that just because they show up for lectures and pass in their papers they should automattically get an A. But this is where I start to disagree with him because if a teacher sees a student showing up for the lectures and passing in their papers but are struggling and are doing everything that they can then their effort should be taken into account and reflect on their grade.
I believe that the grade you work for should be the grade you earn. There should be no set level in which any student starts at a set letter grade and moves up or down. I think the effort you put into your work shows in the results of your grade. If you don’t work hard and don’t put a lot of effort into your work and meet standard requirements than your final grade is not going to be high. If you work hard, put all of your effort into your work, follow instructions and meet the requirements you will earn the better grade. School is all about trying. If you don’t try than you won’t succeed. Then again there are plenty of students out there that have a hard time understanding what they are being taught. Even if they ask for help and still can’t seem to understand it they are putting effort into their work and trying to learn. Those people deserve a break, they are not slacking off they are doing their work and trying to understand it. So I’m on both sides with this article.
My thoughts were that the teacher has a point, but I definitely side more with the students. We are shown that the standard is that when you do what is asked, you get a 100%.
I do agree that some students feel that they deserve a top grade by doing the BARE minimum, but a student who works very hard, and it shows, then they should not be given a C either if it meets requirements. When a lot of high school students are misled by teachers, they do end up failing or their grades drop tremendously in college.
I can see his problem, but I also see the side of the students. They are shown a lot of grace all through middle and high school. Even when teachers in high school say they are “preparing us for college”, most still grade with an A or B for the standard work that is given. They expect that they were told this is how it was going to be in college and it just isn’t. They will adjust eventually, but it’s a bit of a culture shock for them, especially when they were told them something different then what actually happens.
I think that when students get through high school, some may feel that they are entitled to be able to keep working at “senioritis” level and still get a B, as some do when they are a senior. They also feel that they can do the minimum and the teacher will just give them an A or B, as teachers in high school did.
This is definitely something I will take with me when I go into college next year. I expect that I’m going to have to work my butt of to even get a B. I may need to change my studying strategies and be more attentive.
After reading this article, it tells me things that I already knew, but did open my eyes a little more to that, even though I may not like it, college professors are going to grade how they want and I need to just do what they want, no matter how “entitled” you feel to a better grade.
Sarah Fabianski
Every year in high school we hear the same thing from our teachers. "Next year the teachers are not going to chase after you for assignments. They are not going to be as nice as we are." And so far they have all lied. The work may get a little bit more difficult but for the most part the teaching styles are pretty much the same. To a certain degree I agree with Professor Grosssman. I think that by saying that he is trying to create a disadvantage for the kids who come in once a month, take the test and get a 100. I do think that doing the standard requierments should earn you more than a C. But this teacher reminds me alot of Mr. Dacey. He was the type of teacher that made you earn the grade. He had a unique style of teaching that I had never been experienced to before and it was difficult. I do think that if you do the required work, come to class every day, work hard and maybe don't do so well on the tests than the teacher should take that into consideration.
I agree with Professor Grossman and I also disagree. The reason for is because I understand where he is coming from with that thought. You get what you work for if you only do required work then you get a C which is average. Don’t expect in college to get an A when you do required work. This isn’t high school this is college which a step higher so obviously if you do work that is required you get a B or C. Don’t think everything in life especially college is going to be like high school, it isn’t and will never be that is plain and simple. On the flip side I think he is being a bit too harsh a C for required work? That just seems a bit much but maybe that’s because I’m used to the high school system and not college way. This is something I will keep in mind when attending college I understand that it will be a level harder than I’m used to but it is something I can handle.
I agree with Professor Grossman that most college students get more Cs than As because they don’t take pride in their work. If you are truly interested in something you should do your best to learn as much about it as possible when they teach. When you know more about the topic you can better express yourself in writing and get more out of it than just showing up for classes and lectures and passing in your work that has little to no effort in it. I think it’s true that the people who put more pride in their work tend to get better grades than the person who just wrote something just for the sole purpose of doing their work.
I agree and disagree with Professor Grossman’s thoughts. However I side more with the students. When they do everything plus more when it comes to an assignment, then they deserve a grade higher than a C. If he was to give someone a C, as the standard grade, then that student didn’t meet the requirements that he asked for, and that’s when they should deserve that grade.
During high school, students learn that if you do the work with all the requirements that they were asked for, then they should get an excellent grade that is better than a C. Since the time we were freshman, we have had teachers follow us around telling us that our paper is due or telling us that we have a few more days after the due date to pass it in.
I know when I start college, Professors won’t care if I pass or not. My grade will depend on the all the work and the quality of it to pass. Right now I work my hardest as it is to pass in B to A quality work and I’m going to have to work harder when I start college in the fall, and that’s exactly what I’m going to do.
I don’t agree with Prof. Grossman at all. The default grade should be a C, although if someone is trying their very best, a B should be the default grade for them. Learning does not come easy to everyone, I would know that. I’ve never seen someone as bad at math as me. You can sit there and explain something to me 10+ times and chances are I still won’t get it. He does have a good argument though, with students thinking that they deserve an A for doing the minimum required work. As much as I don’t agree with Prof. Grossman’s grading system, I can see where he’s coming from. Many students think that if they do the minimum required work, they’ll get an automatic B. I feel as if BP grading system is unfair because some teachers give you more credit for some things, more than others. This is quite an advantage to some people. I’ve seen people who do absolutely NO homework what-so-ever and they still pass the class. As for GPA’s, I believe they do affect you as a whole academically although I don’t think it they are very accurate. One thing I know for sure though, a 2.9 GPA, just because it isn’t a 3.0 or higher, does not mean you won’t embark very well your career.
After reading this article, I do not agree with Prof. Grossman. First off I do understand where he is coming from do to my experience this year. Some students walk into class, do the given work and automatically expect a decent grade such as a B or even an A because of that but do not excel in anything else. Many students can become lazy and feel that they do not need to do more than what they are asked of. But I also believe that if the work that is given is completed and tests are not failed then a student at least deserves a B average in the class. I think a C is to “drastic” and should not be seen as the average grade. I think that over the years, students begin to feel as if they’re entitled to a higher grade because they have earned it over the years going school and completing all the work given to them. Some may feel that they already know “everything” and feel that they know every way around a teachers grading strategy but in the end they really don’t. Every teacher is different.
As I start my college career this is something that I will keep in mind. Going into college, I know, is going to be very different then what I am used to in high school so I will prepare myself for just about everything. I am glad I read this article because grades are very important especially in college and knowing that some professors think like that will give me the upper hand, and drive me to try my hardest and do more than what I am asked for in class.
I think maintaining a high GPA is very important and should be looked into when starting your career. It shows that you have worked hard and are ready for anything that they might throw at in that certain career. I think your GPA is not something you should not take seriously it is very important and as you can see can affect your career after school.
Victoria-
I completely agree with Professor Grossman, that students especially college (and high school student) feel a sense of entitlement in regards to the grades that they receive. I feel it is true that students feel that if they put in a high level of effort, even if the quality of work is sub-par, they still deserve a good grade. I agree with James Hogge, the Dean of the Peabody School of Education at Vanderbilt University who said that “Students often confuse the level of effort with the quality of work. There is a mentality in students that if ‘I work hard, I deserve a higher grade’.” I feel that students, who really work hard, should be handing in better quality work and thus be getting a good grade based on the result of their effort and hard work, which is the product or work they are passing in. Students, who fall into this mindset of entitlement, are in for a rude awakening when they go onto higher education, like college.
I almost completely agree that when you put in the effort you should receive some credit for it, because it sucks when you put in so much effort in something and receive a low grade for it. I disagree on what Professor Grossman says “I tell my classes that if they just do what they are supposed to do and meet the standard requirements, that they will earn a C,” he said. “That is the default grade. They see the default grade as an A.” In a way I don’t believe that is fair or right. I believe that if you meet the requirements and do what you’re supposed to do then you should at least earn a B; and if you do go above and beyond then you should receive an A. At the same time I can see the problem from his point of view because he thinks that students should challenge themselves instead on just coasting by. I believe that the way kids were brought up is what contributes to the sense of “entitlement” in young people. Young people believe that they deserve everything without really having to work for it. As I start my college career this is something that I will definitely keep in mind because I’ll see how some professor expect more from you and that I should put in more effort and not just try to coast through college.
Gina Mace
After reading the article I have to say that I agree and disagree with what the Professor Grossman .I agree and disagree with him because the students are doing the requirement work and they are probably doing their best to understand what you have given them for work and they “earn” a C. I agree with if you put in all your effort and you get a C, what is the point, you’re doing your best and that’s the grade you’re getting. I think that the Professor should be able to tell whether the student is trying his/hers are hardest. In high school teachers grade different than what college professors do and some students probably aren’t use to it. When I start college I will definitely keep this in mind so I know that I can work my hardest…
I agree and disagree with Professor Grossman. I agree that students shouldn’t be graded on if they show up for class or completing the required reading, but I disagree that even if the students try their hardest, complete all their work, and put a lot of effort into something, the highest grade they can receive is a C. I can see the problem from his view but at the same time I don’t agree with what he is doing. I would be pretty aggravated if I put a lot of effort into something, tried to understand and do what was expected, and receive a C. I think that he should consider maybe giving like a double grade. For example, he gives an assignment that requires you to read a few chapters, even if you don’t give the answer he was looking for, but what you wrote proves that you read the chapters you should get one grade for the actual answer, and one for effort. In some cases this might not work because of things like sparknotes but it’s not fair to those who actually tried hard and don’t get the grade they thought they deserved.
I think that that is ridiculous. I so do not agree with professor Grossman. He thinks that there is a problem where there shouldn’t be one. I think he is being a little on the crazy side if you ask me. As I get into college and further my education I will keep in mind that there are some un-fair professors, but you can’t do anything about it. I think if you have a 3.0 or less and they say that you couldn’t embark on your careers, that’s a bunch of bull. People get different grades because people have different interests. Some work better and harder on some things than others. They should learn how to balance out there grades so if you fail on section of the class that doesn’t exactly means you fail all together.
I was very pleased with your commentary regarding this article. I thought that most of you had pretty good arguments, although I did disagree with some of you.
I think that as long as the students know that C work is average, then they can work from there. In most of the grading systems that I've seen - whether in high schools or college - C does mean average. When did it change? When did we think that C is a BAD grade? Is it okay to be average? I fear that in today's society, and with what I've experienced in my own life, that "average" gets you passed over and perhaps ignored. Showing a bit more effort than the average can come back to you in huge amounts. Sometimes even dollar amounts.
As you all embark on your college careers, just know that sometimes average won't cut it, sometimes it will. Just like high school. Sometimes in your jobs, average will cut it, but most time it won't. Especially with today's society! Only the strong will survive.
Couple of notes: Paige and many others talked about effort. I place effort into the above average category. If students are trying very hard to understand something, ask for extra help, stay after for extra help, but still get a C on a test, I might be inclined to inflate the grade. But if a student doesn't get it, doesn't ask questions, doesn't do work on time, I will assign what they get.
David - I understand that this was a beefy article, but when you all write, I can hear all of your opinions. Sometimes our discussions get heated and some people are afraid to talk out loud. Loved your comment. Loved Mr. Dacey too.
Dan - you said "I think that the whole point of college is to obtain the knowledge that you are required to know in a certain field, so you can be successful when you get a job in that field in the real world." Yes, part of the point of college is to obtain the knowledge for a field, but you must also take a lot of core classes that make you a "well rounded" person. Don't even get me started on all that! As an adult in college, I can 100% tell you that I will never pull out my history from pre 1800 in any conversation or any job. I am sorry to be the one to tell you that even in college, you will have to be learning things that are not interesting to you.
I guess what we have to all ask ourselves is "Is average enough?"
I say no.
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